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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes the skeptic zone podcast episode

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number 540 you know that's a that's

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quite an effort even if I do say so

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myself but but my friends Gio George

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Robert the geologic podcast just

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released episode 600 congratulations

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George Rob what a guy what a fantastic

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podcaster you are a great musician and a

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good and dear friend and it's really

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nice to have you as a colleague and to

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meet you occasionally around the world

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but getting back to the skeptics in

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episode 544 the 23rd of February 2019

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which had Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia today's weather report

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overcast and a bit of rain coming up on

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this week's show now you may remember

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about three years ago there was a

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chiropractor here in Australia in hot

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water for treating a baby and the baby

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was seen in a video to be in discomfort

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and distress as the chiropractor

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manipulated this baby's back well its

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history repeating itself another

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chiropractor has been busted treating a

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two week old baby using a bizarre device

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called an activator and we're going to

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be looking at this device and looking at

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the issue today on the sceptic zone

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talking about chiropractic with a news

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immediate report about this chiropractor

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you'll hear the audio from the video and

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we talked to dr. John Cunningham who has

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received the order of Australia and

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quoting from his website has committed

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his professional life to the treatment

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of patients with spinal disorders his

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opinion and knowledge of spinal

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disorders especially those of the aging

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spine spinal trauma and spinal imbalance

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are respected worldwide now John will

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talk to us a bit later on with his views

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on this chiropractor and chiropractic

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treatment and after that interview I

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read from the skeptic magazine a report

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done a couple of years ago by Tim

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Mendham comparing what chiropractors

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have to go through for their

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professional training compared to GPS

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with a contribution by dr. John

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Cunningham so the first part of this

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week's show is given over to

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chiropractic and after that we have

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Maynard spooky action

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Maynard does a follow up to the report

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that Trish Han did all about three or

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four weeks ago where she interviewed dr.

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Brad Makai about pill testing this is

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where there's a movement here in this

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state New South Wales to have pills

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tested at music festivals so when people

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who buy drugs for whatever reason and

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people do go along to these outdoor

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festivals or indoor festivals and a

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prone to take a pill well at least

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there's a movement afoot to have these

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pills tested to see if they have

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poisonous or at least could do great

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harm

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now main out a couple of days ago

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attended a talk a meeting on this

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subject he catches up with Shane green

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up an old friend of the skeptic zone who

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was there another speaker by the name of

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Sophie who has a very personal and

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relevant story to relate and also dr.

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Alex Ward act who is an advocate for

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pill testing at festivals and just to

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make it absolutely clear the skeptic

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zone is not repeat not advocating the

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taking of any illegal drugs at festivals

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or anywhere else however this is a

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relevant issue and it relies heavily on

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science and getting to the facts so I

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think it's a topic well worth covering

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then to round off the show I read a

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press statement a position statement by

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the Australian skeptics Inc about gay

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conversion therapy and moves in the

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state of Victoria to ban this bizarre

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controversial therapy let's right at the

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end of the show stay tuned

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do you stay tuned on a podcast

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do you stay it's a term that it's going

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to be around for years and decades after

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its original meaning has been lost stay

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tuned I mean we use lots of terms in

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modern language from centuries ago so

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maybe stay tuned we'll be one of them

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hmm

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stay tuned at the end of the show for

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more announcements from me but now it's

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time for me to run downstairs where are

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[Music]

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nothing I think they've got better

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things to do time for me to run

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downstairs have a nice cup of black

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coffee I'm trying black coffee for a

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while might help the old vocal cords

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while I do that I hope you enjoy the

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skeptic zone

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[Music]

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making news here in Australia over the

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last week has been the story of a

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chiropractor in the state of Victoria

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who had himself filmed treating a two

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week old baby the video has gone viral

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with people being shocked and outraged

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by what they have seen now the video is

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very short but here's the audio from it

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the next the way the poet talked about

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okay alright so then maybe if you hold

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here I'm gonna hold I'm locking in here

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and Kelly alright so I'm just gonna go

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upside down for a second yeah yeah we go

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back down just hold his head thanks

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spinner perfect now we're gonna go on to

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this side and then again if you can just

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hold him there we're gonna use the

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activator on the lowest setting I'm

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going to show you on your hand here so

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it's that okay that that's the lowest

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freeing we're gonna put that on the side

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in that video the chiropractor and drew

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Arnold

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at one stage held the tiny baby upside

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down by its feet and then proceeded to

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use what chiropractors call an activator

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which is an bizarre looking instrument

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sort of like Doctor Who's sonic

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screwdriver with the handles to tap or

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send impulses into the baby that's when

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the baby started crying we pick up the

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story here from Caitlin offer the

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Australian Associated Press has

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published at news calm today.you

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chiropractor banned from treating

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children after controversial work on

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baby a Melbourne chiropractor who

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treated a newborn baby in a

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Erol video has been banned from working

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on young children while he's

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investigated this story was published on

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the 21st of February a Melbourne

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chiropractor filmed manipulating a two

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week old boy must not treat children

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under 12 while he is investigated by

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authorities andrew arnold was put on an

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undertaking by the chiropractic Board of

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Australia on Thursday quote I will not

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undertake any chiropractic treatment of

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children from birth to 12 years end

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quote the undertaking published on the

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Australian health practitioner

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regulation agency website reads quote I

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will not publish display promote or

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provide materials information or advice

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that relates to the assessment

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management or treatment of children from

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birth to 12 years including but not

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limited to the publication of material

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on social media blogs and or any other

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platform on the Internet in quote mr.

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Arnold will be the subject of an

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investigation by the agency and board

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Victorian Health Minister Jenny macaco

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said Ms makiko's yesterday cited the

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quote extremely disturbing end quote

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video after referring mr. Arnold to the

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national authorities and as an aside if

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you simply google Australian

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chiropractor baby or even chiropractor

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baby you probably easily find the video

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in question on Thursday she confirmed

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she had heard back from the AHPRA and

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the chiropractic Board of Australia

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quote they are investigating this matter

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and in fact I have invited them to meet

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with me and I will be meeting with both

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the chairperson of the chiropractic

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Board of Australia and the CEO of the

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AHPRA next weekend quote she told

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reporters quote I am concerned by this

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particular case but I also want to

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ensure there aren't other chiropractors

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around Australia who are similarly

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undertaking these types of practices

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it's very important

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the board does issue very clear advice

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to all chiropractors in Australia about

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the inherent risks associated with these

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types of practices end quote

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crane born family chiropractic has since

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shut down its Facebook page where the

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video is posted in August it also showed

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mr. Arnold using an instrument to

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deliver a controlled impulse on the

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baby's neck and back causing it to

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scream one of the baby's parents is

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believed to be off-camera as mr. Arnold

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talks through the consultation and warns

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quote he the baby is going to squawk a

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bit in quote mr. Arnold and the clinic

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have been contacted for comment the

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Royal Australian College of General

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Practitioners President Harry Ness Palin

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has called on government authorities to

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ban the practice quote the government

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must start looking at this very

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carefully and decide whether or not they

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think it is okay to perform this

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treatment on a baby in quote the

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chiropractic Board of Australia and the

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AHPRA

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have been contacted for comment now

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doing a little bit of digging around I

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came across the website of smart methods

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comte u Australia's home of activator

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this is the device in question if you go

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to that web page or you look search for

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chiropractic activator you see the

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device again it looks like some sort of

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weird sonic screwdriver with handles and

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the website states the activator method

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is one of the most widely researched

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chiropractic techniques and the only

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instrument adjusting technique with 23

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clinical trials to support its efficacy

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activator methods has published hundreds

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of clinical and scientific peer-reviewed

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papers worked with major academic

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research institutions and received

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grants from recognized entities like the

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USA's National Institutes of Health and

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having a quick look at their online

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store activator Australia the activator

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for easy grip chiropractic adjustment

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tool $1,300

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it says in part the activator 4 or IV

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easy easy grip is especially designed

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for practitioners with smaller hands hmm

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the easy grip solution has a shorter

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reach between palm and finger pads which

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will give the leverage needed without

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undue hand strain oh isn't that nice at

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it's comfortable to use the base model

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as far as I can see the activator one

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chiropractic adjustment tool is a

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bargain at only four hundred and fifty

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dollars and on the page that says what

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activator do I need we find the

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following video

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hello I'm dr. Arlen for co-founder and

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developer of the activator method in

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nearly five decades the activator method

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has grown to become the world's number

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one instrument adjusting technique the

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mainstay of this gentle low force

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technique is the activator adjusting

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instrument which is supported by

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extensive research provides unparalleled

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reliability and produces superior

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results for patients why is the

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activator adjusting instrument preferred

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by chiropractors worldwide

279
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:44,520
unlike other chiropractic adjusting

280
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:46,710
instruments the patented design and

281
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:48,570
engineering of the activator has been

282
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:50,690
proven effective through clinical trials

283
00:13:56,540 --> 00:13:53,730
the instrument is made of quality sturdy

284
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:56,550
materials including stainless steel and

285
00:14:00,860 --> 00:13:58,320
is covered by a one-year warranty the

286
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,870
best in the industry an activator methis

287
00:14:04,670 --> 00:14:02,880
provides product liability coverage for

288
00:14:06,650 --> 00:14:04,680
doctors who use the activator adjusting

289
00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:06,660
instrument the activator adjusting

290
00:14:10,460 --> 00:14:08,340
instrument is available in several

291
00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:10,470
models to suit the varying needs of

292
00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:13,860
every chiropractor the activator 2 but I

293
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:15,900
can't help thinking of something dr.

294
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:18,510
Harriet Hall the Skip doc says about

295
00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:23,760
tooth fairy science it's like doing a

296
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:25,350
scientific study on how the Tooth Fairy

297
00:14:36,270 --> 00:14:33,540
joining me now on the line from

298
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,280
Melbourne is dr. John Cunningham from

299
00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:38,320
the Epworth Medical Center hello John

300
00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:40,600
and hello Richard how are you I'm very

301
00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:43,060
well now you've had a chance to see the

302
00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:44,950
video in question and you're familiar of

303
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:47,470
the story of this chiropractor treating

304
00:14:54,330 --> 00:14:51,490
a two week old baby what were your

305
00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:54,340
impressions when you saw it the first

306
00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:55,390
thing that came to mind is the word

307
00:15:01,610 --> 00:14:56,920
unnecessary hmm

308
00:15:03,870 --> 00:15:01,620
there's absolutely nothing yeah that

309
00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:03,880
there is there is absolutely no evidence

310
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:06,760
that treating babies particularly

311
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:09,250
newborns with any sort of chiropractic

312
00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:12,790
care is is required I mean a newborn

313
00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:14,140
when they're when they come out of the

314
00:15:18,630 --> 00:15:15,790
womb they're they're absolutely gorgeous

315
00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:18,640
and perfect most of the time and they're

316
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:22,030
really the most incredible organisms if

317
00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:23,410
you want to think it like that all they

318
00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:26,020
know to do is to grow and to live in to

319
00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:28,360
survive and to think that you can make

320
00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:31,630
them somehow better than perfect is is

321
00:15:36,420 --> 00:15:34,600
really quite concerning yeah and the

322
00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:36,430
baby in question certainly didn't I mean

323
00:15:40,830 --> 00:15:38,230
took my untrained I just look like a

324
00:15:43,530 --> 00:15:40,840
normal baby and it was very interesting

325
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:43,540
because the chiropractor went about his

326
00:15:49,050 --> 00:15:46,570
business and I I don't know how to word

327
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:49,060
this but it's as if he almost knew what

328
00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:50,680
he was doing we didn't you know

329
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:52,360
according to his training he thought he

330
00:15:57,570 --> 00:15:54,150
was doing something or the right thing

331
00:16:00,630 --> 00:15:57,580
well you know they've got they've got a

332
00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:00,640
patter you know they've got the the

333
00:16:05,550 --> 00:16:04,300
keywords they use one thing that you

334
00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:05,560
know you could just drive a truck

335
00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:10,120
through was when he was pressing on the

336
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:12,670
baby's sacrum and saying he's going to

337
00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:15,010
get the CSF flowing well you know

338
00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:16,180
there's two problems with that one is

339
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:20,020
the CSF flows regardless hmm it's just

340
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:22,810
part of life and secondly it flows the

341
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:24,370
opposite way it flows from the head down

342
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:28,090
to the sacrum and if there really is a

343
00:16:32,010 --> 00:16:30,610
problem with CSF flow and that's a

344
00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:32,020
medical condition called hydrocephalus

345
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:36,430
and there is nothing that a chiropractor

346
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,600
is going to be able to do for that

347
00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:40,000
condition so you know on three counts

348
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,300
there the you know it is just it's a

349
00:16:47,939 --> 00:16:45,040
flawed treatment now

350
00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:47,949
I don't doubt that parents want the best

351
00:16:52,170 --> 00:16:49,870
for their children I'm a parent of four

352
00:16:55,949 --> 00:16:52,180
children myself and I care for them very

353
00:16:57,750 --> 00:16:55,959
deeply but I get concerned that parents

354
00:17:00,060 --> 00:16:57,760
well-meaning parents are getting

355
00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:00,070
hoodwinked by these people to believe

356
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:02,940
that they have something to offer them

357
00:17:09,569 --> 00:17:06,160
when it's simply it's simply untrue and

358
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:09,579
it's now's the time that we can quite

359
00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:12,400
categorically say that there is no

360
00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:15,790
evidence that chiropractic to a baby of

361
00:17:21,059 --> 00:17:18,100
only two weeks of age is going to make

362
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:21,069
the slightest difference yeah and in a

363
00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:23,829
way it's a good thing that this was done

364
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:26,020
in an odd sort of way or at least should

365
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:28,690
I say it was filmed and put up online

366
00:17:33,090 --> 00:17:31,120
because sort of reminds me of the

367
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:33,100
homeopaths they'd make up rageous

368
00:17:36,450 --> 00:17:34,570
statements and they do outrageous things

369
00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:36,460
and they gladly share them with the

370
00:17:40,890 --> 00:17:38,950
world because they really sincerely

371
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:40,900
believe that they're actually doing some

372
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:44,799
good or doing the right thing I'm sure

373
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,270
they do you know and I'm sure that a lot

374
00:17:53,789 --> 00:17:49,120
of chiropractors also believe that what

375
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,799
they're doing is is helpful I would hope

376
00:17:59,940 --> 00:17:55,840
that would be the case you know I think

377
00:18:04,980 --> 00:17:59,950
all humans fundamentally you know good

378
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:04,990
people but at the end of the day if if

379
00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:06,730
it's been shown that there's no

380
00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:09,190
difference between children treated with

381
00:18:12,510 --> 00:18:10,750
chiropractic and children that treated

382
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:12,520
that aren't treated with chiropractic

383
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:14,770
then then why you're doing it why are

384
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,220
you taking people's money and why are

385
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:20,559
you wasting their time even more

386
00:18:26,970 --> 00:18:23,350
concerning you know are you treating

387
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:26,980
conditions real conditions with

388
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:30,790
ineffectual treatments indeed and I

389
00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:33,520
can't think of a more obvious example of

390
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:35,460
something ineffectual than this bizarre

391
00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:38,770
activator the the chiropractor is using

392
00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:40,510
in the video I have seen them before and

393
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:43,120
it's sort of like a an sharp

394
00:18:47,820 --> 00:18:45,370
impulse sort of device that looks like

395
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:47,830
something out of science fiction and I

396
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:50,410
noticed that you can buy a range of

397
00:18:56,130 --> 00:18:52,750
these things the top level is the

398
00:18:59,400 --> 00:18:56,140
activator 5 at only 2319

399
00:19:01,170 --> 00:18:59,410
dollars is that how much they cost well

400
00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:01,180
that's the top of the range that's for

401
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:02,560
their you know the chiropractor on the

402
00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:05,110
move top of the range I know you can

403
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:08,680
also buy children's toy versions of them

404
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:10,930
as well good and dare I say they're

405
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:14,530
probably just as effective look you know

406
00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:15,970
I I don't want to come across as

407
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:20,680
sounding like I am incredibly cynical

408
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:23,350
when it comes to chiropractors there are

409
00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:26,710
chiropractors that take their job you

410
00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:29,680
know with seriously and they they use

411
00:19:34,290 --> 00:19:32,230
evidence-based approaches and they sort

412
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:34,300
of feel more like you know I guess I

413
00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:36,160
could say spinal physiotherapists you

414
00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:37,780
know they're specialized people that

415
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:39,700
deal with spine and back issues and

416
00:19:44,550 --> 00:19:42,070
they're very good at what they do the

417
00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:44,560
the the problem that I have with

418
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:47,260
chiropractic is that these there's this

419
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:51,280
other group who want to believe in magic

420
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:54,400
they want to believe that their magic

421
00:19:59,790 --> 00:19:57,310
hands can somehow manipulate this life

422
00:20:03,480 --> 00:19:59,800
force that nobody can see and nobody can

423
00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:03,490
touch apart from them mm-hmm but this

424
00:20:12,030 --> 00:20:07,270
life force is somehow dependent on the

425
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:12,040
the alignment of vertebrae which they

426
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:13,770
can't change anyway

427
00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:17,200
it's just it's flawed on so many levels

428
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:20,500
and and I'm I wish that I could talk to

429
00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:22,210
people that are thinking about doing

430
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:25,270
chiropractic and and say to them you

431
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:26,770
know if you're going to go down this

432
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,110
path you're going to come across people

433
00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:31,600
that believe in magic and they're going

434
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:33,400
to try and teach you magic tricks and

435
00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:36,880
and I hope you stay awake and you're

436
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:38,920
aware of this part that they're going to

437
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:41,530
try and lead you down you know if I was

438
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:42,850
thinking about doing chiropractic right

439
00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:44,610
now if I was living school I'd probably

440
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:48,160
choose a different job like a different

441
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:51,250
different line of work because it's only

442
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:53,070
going to get harder for chiropractors

443
00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:55,390
every time they they put one of these

444
00:21:00,840 --> 00:20:58,240
videos up online I mean you know they're

445
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:00,850
just kicking home goals they're they're

446
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:04,050
digging themselves deeper holes and

447
00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:05,890
eventually people are going to run out

448
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:09,670
of patience with them and you know my

449
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:14,320
more restrictive laws will be passed so

450
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:16,870
I hope they stop doing this I hope that

451
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:19,690
they stop promoting pediatric

452
00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:23,170
chiropractic not only for for the

453
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:24,790
children's sake and the parents sake but

454
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:26,650
for their own sake yes and it's

455
00:21:31,020 --> 00:21:28,720
interesting you should say bringing the

456
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:31,030
specter of maybe regulation well the

457
00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:32,670
more they do it the more it becomes

458
00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:35,590
under the notice or to the attention of

459
00:21:38,820 --> 00:21:37,390
government and I think even that the

460
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:38,830
Health Minister in Victoria have been

461
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:40,690
quite concerned by this video and this

462
00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:43,120
may lead who knows this may lead to them

463
00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:44,590
looking taking a hard look at this

464
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:46,540
activator oh by the way the cheapest

465
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:48,010
model is only four hundred and fifty

466
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:52,570
dollars and and maybe actually putting

467
00:21:58,050 --> 00:21:55,200
out a warning or banning it somehow

468
00:22:00,210 --> 00:21:58,060
look the activator I don't think does

469
00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:00,220
much harm itself and and that was the

470
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:03,070
idea of the activator so before the

471
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:05,050
activator came along chiropractors were

472
00:22:11,070 --> 00:22:07,330
doing is me pew license with their hands

473
00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:11,080
and you know causing injuries with those

474
00:22:14,190 --> 00:22:12,940
particularly to adults with vertebral

475
00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:14,200
artery dissection 's and things like

476
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:16,630
this the idea of the activator is it

477
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:19,810
makes the manipulation a lot more

478
00:22:24,810 --> 00:22:23,290
palatable and you know reproducible to

479
00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:24,820
some extent

480
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:27,820
I don't think regulating the activator

481
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:29,710
would do anything I think well you know

482
00:22:33,660 --> 00:22:32,290
my personal opinion is that this concept

483
00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:33,670
of self-regulation where the

484
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:36,040
chiropractic board are regulating their

485
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:39,250
own profession I think is flawed mm-hmm

486
00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:40,930
they only have to show that their

487
00:22:47,340 --> 00:22:43,870
practice is in alignment with get upon

488
00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:47,350
there in alignment with other

489
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:50,680
chiropractors so if you've got one clown

490
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:53,530
and he says well you know I'm behaving

491
00:22:57,450 --> 00:22:55,450
just like that other clown well then

492
00:23:00,210 --> 00:22:57,460
it's okay according to the letter of the

493
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:00,220
law I would say it's time to actually

494
00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:03,850
take things seriously and and say if

495
00:23:11,310 --> 00:23:08,020
your practice is not supported by the

496
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:11,320
evidence you know almost any sort of

497
00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:14,320
evidence then it should not be done I

498
00:23:18,990 --> 00:23:16,150
mean that's the rules that medical

499
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:19,000
practitioners abide by we we always have

500
00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:23,710
to practice evidence-based care and

501
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:25,420
I don't know why other health

502
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:27,280
practitioners and I use that term

503
00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:30,310
loosely shouldn't have to abide by the

504
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:33,070
same rules indeed absolutely but maybe

505
00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:35,680
this is a case of the more that these

506
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:38,800
videos appear the more likely it is that

507
00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:42,250
something finally gets done about it

508
00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:44,800
and just finally John all the years that

509
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:46,870
you've been interested in this do you

510
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:49,030
really think that chiropractic is waning

511
00:23:56,730 --> 00:23:52,050
or is it almost an impossible fight for

512
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:56,740
evidence-based medicine I never give up

513
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:00,400
hope the the well-oiled machine of

514
00:24:10,410 --> 00:24:04,050
chiropractic marketing hmm is certainly

515
00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:10,420
keeping them alive see the more they dig

516
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:12,670
their holes though I think the more

517
00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:14,290
trouble they're going to get themselves

518
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:18,280
into and people aren't hoodwinked as

519
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:20,530
much as we used to be unfortunately

520
00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:23,470
there's also this groundswell of people

521
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:25,990
wanting to be more well you know

522
00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:29,890
wellness concept yeah and and people are

523
00:24:35,610 --> 00:24:31,840
always looking for that next thing to

524
00:24:38,370 --> 00:24:35,620
make the more will and you know

525
00:24:40,340 --> 00:24:38,380
chiropractic offers that they offer not

526
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:40,350
just chiropractic now but they'll offer

527
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:43,410
massage and dry needling and

528
00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:46,480
motivational speeches and you know all

529
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:48,550
this sort of stuff and you come out of

530
00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:50,560
there and you spent an hour and you know

531
00:24:55,860 --> 00:24:52,780
you know in our relaxation you know of

532
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:55,870
course you feel better yeah so so

533
00:24:59,250 --> 00:24:57,610
chiropractic is often offered these days

534
00:25:02,330 --> 00:24:59,260
in conjunction with all these other

535
00:25:04,580 --> 00:25:02,340
concepts like message and dry needling

536
00:25:10,670 --> 00:25:04,590
meditation and that's all good and well

537
00:25:13,620 --> 00:25:10,680
but at the heart of chiropractic if you

538
00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:13,630
if you are being if you are being told

539
00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:17,500
that manipulating the spine is going to

540
00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:20,020
make you somehow more well than you

541
00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:20,550
already are

542
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:23,560
then you've been hoodwinked you've been

543
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:27,310
sold the snake oil the the clicking that

544
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:29,200
comes from chiropractic manipulation is

545
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:30,850
the equivalent of cracking your knuckles

546
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:32,890
it comes from the facet joints at the

547
00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:35,650
back of the spine and it's of no more

548
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:37,420
significance than cracking knuckles

549
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:40,210
yeah but it sounds good it sounds like

550
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:42,010
something's happening I know cuz when I

551
00:25:46,410 --> 00:25:44,170
was a teenager I had it done myself and

552
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:46,420
when you hear all those cracks in your

553
00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:48,610
back and the chiropractor says something

554
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:49,780
like there I've got it

555
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,570
it's very good it's very convincing it's

556
00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:54,640
it's very convincing you need to

557
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:55,750
understand that this you know

558
00:26:00,539 --> 00:25:57,490
chiropractic was established by a guy

559
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:00,549
who prior to inventing chiropractic was

560
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:04,799
selling magnets as a as a health therapy

561
00:26:09,780 --> 00:26:07,510
and I know myself you know I've had a

562
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:09,790
sore back from time to time and I've

563
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:11,290
been to a physiotherapist and they've

564
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:13,150
given them a couple of cracks and it

565
00:26:16,409 --> 00:26:14,710
feels better much like cracking your

566
00:26:19,049 --> 00:26:16,419
knuckles sometimes makes your hands feel

567
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:19,059
this yes yes but but that's all it is

568
00:26:25,890 --> 00:26:21,820
it's not tied in to treating asthma or

569
00:26:28,890 --> 00:26:25,900
bedwetting or colic or your immune

570
00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:28,900
system you know it has no bearing on all

571
00:26:33,539 --> 00:26:30,790
these other systems whatsoever

572
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:33,549
well John look thank you very much for

573
00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:34,960
chatting to the sceptic zone we're going

574
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:36,940
to keep an eye on this story I mean the

575
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:39,730
the chiropractor in question is being

576
00:26:43,409 --> 00:26:41,890
restricted in his practice at the moment

577
00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:43,419
and I think there are investigations

578
00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:46,630
underway and folks I will link to dr.

579
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:48,340
John Cunningham's website so you can

580
00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:51,090
check out him for yourself but for now

581
00:27:04,200 --> 00:26:53,950
dr. John Cunningham thank you very much

582
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:10,870
[Music]

583
00:27:18,019 --> 00:27:14,970
dr. Harriet Hall MD no into thousands as

584
00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:18,029
the skeptic a retired family physician

585
00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:21,149
and former Air Force flight surgeon she

586
00:27:24,879 --> 00:27:23,190
writes about medicine so-called

587
00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:24,889
complementary and alternative medicine

588
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:26,190
science

589
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:29,970
pakery and critical thinking Harriet now

590
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,610
has a free course a series of 10 video

591
00:27:38,330 --> 00:27:35,039
lectures on science-based medicine and

592
00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:38,340
alternative medicine the videos and an

593
00:27:43,940 --> 00:27:40,470
accompanying course guide can be found

594
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:43,950
by following the link at skeptic info or

595
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:48,080
by visiting web Randi's org slash

596
00:27:55,789 --> 00:27:53,370
educational - modules dot html' topics

597
00:27:58,340 --> 00:27:55,799
covered in the series are science-based

598
00:28:02,149 --> 00:27:58,350
medicine vs. evidence-based medicine

599
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:02,159
what is Kam chiropractic acupuncture

600
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:05,370
homeopathy naturopathy and herbal

601
00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:08,159
medicine energy medicine miscellaneous

602
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:10,860
alternatives pitfalls in research and

603
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:13,860
science based medicine in the media and

604
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:17,610
politics Harriette covers each topic in

605
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:20,190
a matter-of-fact no-nonsense way that

606
00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:23,460
sure to educate and entertain skeptic

607
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:25,550
dot info

608
00:28:54,410 --> 00:28:51,169
continuing our series of reports

609
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:54,420
interviews articles items from the

610
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:56,130
skeptic magazine the journal from

611
00:29:05,590 --> 00:28:58,890
Australian skeptics we turn to vol 36

612
00:29:09,770 --> 00:29:05,600
number one from March 2016 and on page

613
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:09,780
46 we find an article by Tim Mendham who

614
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:13,110
is the editor of the magazine diploma

615
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:16,650
see Tim Mendham looks at medical

616
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:25,549
chiropractors want to be the first port

617
00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:28,080
of call for healthcare but how do their

618
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:30,120
qualifications stack up against those of

619
00:29:35,780 --> 00:29:33,450
GPS is it true that GPS and

620
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:35,790
chiropractors do much of the same level

621
00:29:39,470 --> 00:29:37,530
of training and are thus equally

622
00:29:42,860 --> 00:29:39,480
qualified to practice primary health

623
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:42,870
care should chiropractors play the role

624
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:45,809
that GPS currently do as the first stop

625
00:29:51,470 --> 00:29:48,750
for medical consultation the argument

626
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,480
used by chiropractors to practice as

627
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:53,760
primary health care is that they must go

628
00:29:58,100 --> 00:29:55,410
through the same level of medical

629
00:30:01,039 --> 00:29:58,110
training as GPS including the same

630
00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:01,049
courses and are thus as qualified to

631
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,049
offer primary health care as GPS the

632
00:30:08,590 --> 00:30:06,960
question is whether this is true the

633
00:30:11,409 --> 00:30:08,600
vision statement of the chiropractic

634
00:30:13,690 --> 00:30:11,419
professionals peak body the

635
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:13,700
chiropractor's Association of Australia

636
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:17,520
CAA positions chiropractors as an

637
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:20,370
alternative health system distinct from

638
00:30:26,030 --> 00:30:23,490
the mainstream and aims to achieve a

639
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:26,040
fundamental paradigm shift in healthcare

640
00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:28,650
direction where chiropractic is

641
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:30,540
recognized as the most cost effective

642
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:33,570
and effective health regime of first

643
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:36,750
choice that is readily accessible to all

644
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:38,880
people in an article on the choice

645
00:30:44,570 --> 00:30:41,970
website karina Bray senior content

646
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:44,580
producer health for choice laid out some

647
00:30:48,770 --> 00:30:46,020
of the issues associated with

648
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:48,780
chiropractic and differences between it

649
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:51,570
and the GP profession apart from the

650
00:30:56,539 --> 00:30:53,760
level of qualifications these issues

651
00:30:58,909 --> 00:30:56,549
included the anti-vaccination stance of

652
00:31:01,630 --> 00:30:58,919
many chiropractors the potential for

653
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:01,640
myths diagnosis and preventative

654
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:04,470
manipulations which may cause problems

655
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:08,010
where none previously existed the claim

656
00:31:15,890 --> 00:31:13,730
for chiropractic training AHS CID guy 35

657
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:15,900
responded to Bray's article and the

658
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:19,440
choice site with a comment that the

659
00:31:24,049 --> 00:31:22,140
article was biased with Bray apparently

660
00:31:26,570 --> 00:31:24,059
showing a lack of understanding of what

661
00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:26,580
training chiropractors go through which

662
00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:28,950
is a full three-year bachelor's degree

663
00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:31,350
in science followed by a two years

664
00:31:35,850 --> 00:31:34,049
master's degree if anyone does some

665
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:35,860
research instead of taking

666
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:38,770
dream biased views they can clearly see

667
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:41,679
chiropractors do take extensive training

668
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:44,770
and just as much as GPS in the science

669
00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:46,990
side of things the courses are very

670
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:47,710
similar

671
00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:50,290
GPS require and the same as

672
00:31:55,850 --> 00:31:52,270
chiropractors courses in anatomy

673
00:32:00,960 --> 00:31:55,860
physiology physics chemistry and bio

674
00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:00,970
chemistry neuroanatomy etc these courses

675
00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:03,400
do not differ they are not taught by

676
00:32:08,190 --> 00:32:05,860
anyone different either the person in

677
00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:08,200
question teaching the specific course

678
00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:11,260
has to have a degree in that specific

679
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:14,080
course ie biochemistry teacher has to

680
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:16,270
have a bachelor's of biochemistry with

681
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:18,940
honors etc depending on the University

682
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:20,860
of the mean requirements

683
00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:23,530
hence some are better than others just

684
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:27,070
like medicine both require a minimum the

685
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:29,919
rest assured as per law chiropractors

686
00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:32,320
also learn ECG monitoring blood pressure

687
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:34,750
etc that's why they can do this stuff

688
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:37,210
also as you get taught this in anatomy

689
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:39,790
and physiology second level the only

690
00:32:44,159 --> 00:32:42,490
parts where they differ is GPS branch

691
00:32:46,530 --> 00:32:44,169
off into getting training for drugs

692
00:32:48,570 --> 00:32:46,540
where chiropractors actually keep going

693
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:48,580
with even more in depth anatomy and

694
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:50,980
physiology specific to what they deal

695
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:53,830
with each day even the years are the

696
00:32:58,260 --> 00:32:54,370
same

697
00:33:01,260 --> 00:32:58,270
check out Australia AMA page takes four

698
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:01,270
to six years Chiropractic takes minimum

699
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:04,960
five then medical does a further one

700
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:07,770
year normally Hospital residency a

701
00:33:13,169 --> 00:33:10,690
chiropractor does this in addition to

702
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:13,179
its normal studies for two years in

703
00:33:18,419 --> 00:33:15,610
their master's degree both are

704
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:18,429
classified as doctors one is of medicine

705
00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:21,700
to prescribe drugs the other is non drug

706
00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:23,950
prescribing profession both have their

707
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:26,830
needs in society most nurses or MDS

708
00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:30,210
agree with this oh Sid guy admits that

709
00:33:36,270 --> 00:33:33,940
more research is needed but adds if

710
00:33:38,130 --> 00:33:36,280
people are getting relief from this and

711
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,140
there is lack of scientific evidence

712
00:33:43,470 --> 00:33:40,720
around that does not mean it does not

713
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:43,480
work just means we need more studies to

714
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:46,720
show why it works in the people it does

715
00:33:52,399 --> 00:33:49,690
and how there are many chiropractors

716
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:52,409
who would share us CID guys views

717
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:54,370
unfortunately those views are not

718
00:33:59,879 --> 00:33:57,210
correct the reality of medical training

719
00:34:01,799 --> 00:33:59,889
mr. John Cunningham is an Australian

720
00:34:03,779 --> 00:34:01,809
trained orthopaedic surgeon who

721
00:34:06,619 --> 00:34:03,789
specializes in the treatment of spinal

722
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:06,629
disorders he is a fellow of the Royal

723
00:34:12,809 --> 00:34:09,970
Australasian College of Surgeons and of

724
00:34:15,629 --> 00:34:12,819
the Australian orthopedic Association in

725
00:34:17,579 --> 00:34:15,639
the 2016 Australia Day honors he was

726
00:34:21,089 --> 00:34:17,589
awarded a medal of the Order of

727
00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:21,099
Australia OAM for services to medicine

728
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:23,740
and the promotion of immunization he

729
00:34:29,250 --> 00:34:27,010
suggests that us CID guys understanding

730
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:29,260
of chiropractic training and the

731
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:32,530
training of GPS is considerably lacking

732
00:34:37,379 --> 00:34:35,200
for a start mr. Cunningham says that GP

733
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:37,389
must complete a medical degree which

734
00:34:43,169 --> 00:34:40,480
these days is often a 6 to 7 year

735
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:43,179
program of the medical sciences as well

736
00:34:48,359 --> 00:34:45,609
as clinical medicine it is taught by

737
00:34:51,089 --> 00:34:48,369
scientists specialized in the field as

738
00:34:53,210 --> 00:34:51,099
well as clinicians medical practitioners

739
00:34:55,530 --> 00:34:53,220
are taught evidence-based medicine

740
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:55,540
meanwhile chiropractors are taught

741
00:35:00,260 --> 00:34:57,420
make-belief like GaN send

742
00:35:03,359 --> 00:35:00,270
pregnancy and pediatric chiropractic

743
00:35:04,829 --> 00:35:03,369
completely without evidence medical

744
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:04,839
students are not taught by chiropractors

745
00:35:10,530 --> 00:35:07,839
nor our chiropractors taught by medical

746
00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:10,540
practitioners the courses differ and

747
00:35:16,980 --> 00:35:14,500
they differ enormous Lee how do I know

748
00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:16,990
because I did a science degree with

749
00:35:22,380 --> 00:35:19,180
chiropractors at the University of New

750
00:35:25,290 --> 00:35:22,390
South Wales before completing a medical

751
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:25,300
degree while their science degree was

752
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:27,970
similar they only did one major in

753
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:30,130
anatomy and so missed out on physiology

754
00:35:36,569 --> 00:35:33,970
and biochemistry just Anatomy they were

755
00:35:38,490 --> 00:35:36,579
not exposed to nearly as much detail of

756
00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:38,500
the other subjects as medical students

757
00:35:43,609 --> 00:35:40,750
nor did they learn anything about human

758
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:43,619
behavior microbiology or pharmacology

759
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:48,400
just Anatomy to even suggest that

760
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:50,770
chiropractors learn ECGs in the same

761
00:35:55,859 --> 00:35:52,900
detail as a medical practitioner is

762
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:55,869
laughable making a claim that the

763
00:36:00,270 --> 00:35:58,000
two-streams simply branch off is

764
00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:00,280
ridiculous they share no common ground

765
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:03,380
to begin with so cannot branch

766
00:36:09,099 --> 00:36:07,609
as Oz said guy puts it and a medical

767
00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:09,109
degree is only the start

768
00:36:14,769 --> 00:36:12,200
GPS must also complete a three-year

769
00:36:16,779 --> 00:36:14,779
vocational training pathway covering

770
00:36:19,329 --> 00:36:16,789
many aspects of medicine not covered in

771
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,339
detail in the undergraduate section of

772
00:36:24,999 --> 00:36:21,680
training as well as passing more exams

773
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:25,009
than a fellowship exam so we're up to

774
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:27,920
ten years just now and all CID guy

775
00:36:34,059 --> 00:36:30,170
thinks that's only about drugs

776
00:36:35,499 --> 00:36:34,069
what do GPC only the broadest range of

777
00:36:36,759 --> 00:36:35,509
conditions that can be treated with

778
00:36:40,529 --> 00:36:36,769
evidence-based medicine

779
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:40,539
yes drugs are used but what about say

780
00:36:47,309 --> 00:36:44,079
diabetes counseling family planning

781
00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:47,319
psychiatric care end of life care

782
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:50,500
pediatrics learning difficulties

783
00:36:57,759 --> 00:36:54,049
musculoskeletal complaints dermatology I

784
00:37:00,430 --> 00:36:57,769
could go on but to simplify things to

785
00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:00,440
the idea that all gp's do is prescribe

786
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:04,190
drugs is ludicrous a chiropractor is

787
00:37:09,279 --> 00:37:06,170
trained now in universities mr.

788
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:09,289
Cunningham says but many aspects of

789
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:11,529
their curriculum are not evidence based

790
00:37:18,009 --> 00:37:15,289
simple as that and saying more research

791
00:37:21,099 --> 00:37:18,019
is needed is not the same as saying it

792
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:21,109
works much research has already been

793
00:37:25,089 --> 00:37:22,880
done and the only thing that

794
00:37:28,359 --> 00:37:25,099
chiropractors can treat better than GPS

795
00:37:31,569 --> 00:37:28,369
is acute back pain and only in a small

796
00:37:33,730 --> 00:37:31,579
subset of patients researching it more

797
00:37:38,019 --> 00:37:33,740
may provide more evidence for other

798
00:37:39,849 --> 00:37:38,029
conditions but it also may not once

799
00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:39,859
chickens should not be counted before

800
00:37:44,650 --> 00:37:41,990
they're hatched suggesting that

801
00:37:45,999 --> 00:37:44,660
chiropractors can replace GPS because

802
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:46,009
some of their subjects have the same

803
00:37:50,890 --> 00:37:48,650
broad title as each other is blatantly

804
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:50,900
false you might make the same claim

805
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:54,410
about physiotherapists osteopaths nurses

806
00:37:59,769 --> 00:37:57,440
pharmacists and I could go on GPS have

807
00:38:03,279 --> 00:37:59,779
their place and that place is the

808
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:03,289
primary family physician chiropractors

809
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:05,930
should learn their place too and it's

810
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:11,910
[Music]

811
00:38:17,549 --> 00:38:15,970
and that was diploma C written by Tim

812
00:38:21,089 --> 00:38:17,559
Mendham and you can read that for

813
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:21,099
yourself on page 46 of the skeptic

814
00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:23,950
magazine vol 36 number one from March

815
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:31,020
2016 freely available at WWF XCOM au

816
00:38:42,819 --> 00:38:39,970
[Music]

817
00:38:45,940 --> 00:38:42,829
the skeptic magazine the journal from

818
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:45,950
Australian skeptics subscribe online to

819
00:38:53,650 --> 00:38:48,170
the world's second oldest skeptical

820
00:38:56,650 --> 00:38:53,660
magazine visit WWF XCOM 2 and click the

821
00:39:01,059 --> 00:38:56,660
publication's link you can also find

822
00:39:04,210 --> 00:39:01,069
there over 30 years on back issues free

823
00:39:16,299 --> 00:39:04,220
to download the skeptic magazine from

824
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:16,309
Australian skeptics here's main our

825
00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:25,790
I'm just popping down to a 36 Glee point

826
00:39:30,590 --> 00:39:27,630
road which is where they have bed

827
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:30,600
upstairs the red bar of course but at

828
00:39:34,610 --> 00:39:32,400
the back is the bed bar and there's

829
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:34,620
gonna be a bit of an advocacy meeting

830
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:37,530
for the SS DP what does the SS DP let's

831
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,420
go in and just find out what it is in

832
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:41,760
there we'll have politicians will have

833
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:43,830
harm reduction medical specialists and

834
00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:45,090
we'll have people have had actual

835
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:47,430
first-hand experience of overdoses and

836
00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:49,110
why they think if there'd been a bit of

837
00:39:52,490 --> 00:39:50,790
knowledge and harm reduction around that

838
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:52,500
wouldn't have happened to them inside we

839
00:40:00,320 --> 00:39:57,990
go I'm here with Shane who I think I

840
00:40:01,460 --> 00:40:00,330
last spoke to at in Las Vegas I think we

841
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:01,470
the last time I spoke to you when you're

842
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:02,850
doing some great work with a skeptical

843
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:04,320
brow so what are you up to these days

844
00:40:07,580 --> 00:40:05,700
these days

845
00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:07,590
settling down for a simpler life at the

846
00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:09,900
moment you didn't like the idea of

847
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,790
arguing a skeptical browser is a tough

848
00:40:15,350 --> 00:40:13,680
sell on some people isn't it it's a very

849
00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:15,360
tough sell and it got harder actually

850
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:16,920
with the the advent of the

851
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:18,090
misinformation age where suddenly

852
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:19,830
everyone cares about it fake news came

853
00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:22,530
about a lot of people paying attention

854
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:24,750
to it now but unfortunately going away

855
00:40:27,890 --> 00:40:26,430
that I think is just as dangerous as

856
00:40:29,330 --> 00:40:27,900
what they're trying to find so what is

857
00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:29,340
your opinion of the whole drug testing

858
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:30,630
idea here that they're talking about

859
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:32,280
absolutely necessary personally I

860
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:33,690
believe we need to legalize regulate

861
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:38,700
educate and tax tax and educate that's

862
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:40,320
the process we need to do it anything

863
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:41,520
else the war on drugs has failed

864
00:40:44,420 --> 00:40:42,630
miserably

865
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:44,430
well just look around your people yeah

866
00:40:48,370 --> 00:40:46,290
I'm here with Sophie who was one of the

867
00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:48,380
speakers and you have a fairly unique

868
00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:50,520
perspective on the whole drug harm

869
00:40:54,020 --> 00:40:52,380
reduction issue can you describe briefly

870
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:54,030
what happened to you and what your

871
00:41:01,070 --> 00:40:57,890
opinion is these days yes so I survived

872
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:01,080
an overdose on after the ingesting three

873
00:41:09,630 --> 00:41:05,410
pills at a festival nine years ago

874
00:41:11,340 --> 00:41:09,640
and I when I was having the overdose I

875
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:11,350
never received the care that I was

876
00:41:15,450 --> 00:41:13,210
supposed to get because my friends were

877
00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:15,460
too afraid to call the ambulance and

878
00:41:20,670 --> 00:41:18,190
they were too afraid to because they had

879
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:20,680
drugs on them and my boyfriend was too

880
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:22,150
afraid to call an ambulance as well to

881
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:23,680
take me to medical care because he was

882
00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:25,330
the one that sold me the drugs so I

883
00:41:31,620 --> 00:41:27,670
really feel like I could easily be the

884
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:31,630
poster child for for you know the

885
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:33,520
dangers of drug use but to be honest

886
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:35,110
what I think really is the problem is

887
00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:36,640
the fact that why my friends did not

888
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:38,350
feel comfortable getting the help that I

889
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:41,110
needed when I was in when I needed the

890
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:44,050
care you said that also it made you

891
00:41:47,850 --> 00:41:46,510
angry as well after a while and when you

892
00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:47,860
hear the deaths at music festivals

893
00:41:52,110 --> 00:41:50,470
around Australia that must you must

894
00:41:55,110 --> 00:41:52,120
almost imagine you being in their

895
00:41:59,040 --> 00:41:55,120
situation and the anger yeah absolutely

896
00:42:00,510 --> 00:41:59,050
it's it angers me a lot because there

897
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:00,520
are preventative measures out there

898
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:02,650
they've been practiced for like 30 to 50

899
00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:04,510
years and we're not implementing them

900
00:42:09,390 --> 00:42:06,520
and there's people dying like we're

901
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:09,400
talking about young lives like mine so

902
00:42:13,140 --> 00:42:11,770
yes I'm very angry you would not have

903
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:13,150
the time and of course if you said that

904
00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:14,740
people would say well just don't take

905
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:16,180
the pills and this won't happen but

906
00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:17,830
that's very unrealistic isn't it

907
00:42:22,290 --> 00:42:20,680
extremely unrealistic I'm making oh my

908
00:42:23,850 --> 00:42:22,300
gosh I don't know anyone who hasn't

909
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:23,860
tried drugs not even my mum and dad

910
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:26,890
right sorry like I mean we've got to be

911
00:42:30,660 --> 00:42:28,020
tackling this from a different angle

912
00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:30,670
because you just can't tell someone not

913
00:42:36,090 --> 00:42:32,200
to take from the cookie jar

914
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:36,100
yeah that's my analogy on it and my

915
00:42:39,630 --> 00:42:37,930
weird part of the story is you told how

916
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:39,640
your boyfriend sold you three tablets

917
00:42:44,010 --> 00:42:41,770
and I thought your boyfriend sold you

918
00:42:46,620 --> 00:42:44,020
three tablets yeah well it's that way

919
00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:46,630
he's not my boyfriend anymore don't

920
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:47,590
think you need to say anything more

921
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:49,210
there and and what are you going to be

922
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:50,530
thinking about with the state election

923
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:51,730
because we have a number of parties on

924
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:53,230
the Left we have the Green Party we have

925
00:42:57,210 --> 00:42:54,910
the Labour Party both have similar

926
00:42:58,740 --> 00:42:57,220
policies but a bit different and I'm not

927
00:43:00,300 --> 00:42:58,750
trying to force you into a voting corner

928
00:43:02,210 --> 00:43:00,310
here but what do you think about the

929
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:02,220
office of birth both parties

930
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:04,319
look I think anything but what we have

931
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:07,890
is better and I would urge any young

932
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:10,859
person to find out and learn how voting

933
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:12,930
this voting system works so that they

934
00:43:16,430 --> 00:43:14,490
can get their voices heard

935
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:16,440
maybe vote below the line it takes

936
00:43:20,770 --> 00:43:19,200
longer but yeah absolutely absolutely I

937
00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:20,780
know and know where your vote counts

938
00:43:24,410 --> 00:43:21,990
okay

939
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:24,420
but I'm talking to dr. Alex Roy how are

940
00:43:28,670 --> 00:43:26,730
you Alex and one are you looking great

941
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:28,680
and feeling fine tonight yes I am thank

942
00:43:33,289 --> 00:43:31,650
you Alex you said that pill testing

943
00:43:35,299 --> 00:43:33,299
isn't the magic bullet but what do you

944
00:43:37,279 --> 00:43:35,309
think would be the immediate effect of

945
00:43:41,210 --> 00:43:37,289
it if we did it what what would be what

946
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:41,220
we notice straightaway there are three

947
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:44,970
major benefits of pill testing that we

948
00:43:51,940 --> 00:43:47,700
need to talk about and the first one is

949
00:43:56,839 --> 00:43:51,950
that where somebody who's bought a pill

950
00:44:00,020 --> 00:43:56,849
has the pill tester gets advice expert

951
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:00,030
advice that taking that pill would be

952
00:44:06,380 --> 00:44:03,599
very high-risk and decides to throw the

953
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:06,390
pill into the amnesty bin so that's an

954
00:44:12,829 --> 00:44:10,170
individual benefit but what they've done

955
00:44:16,309 --> 00:44:12,839
now in Europe is they turn that into a

956
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:16,319
group benefit so they have worked on the

957
00:44:21,500 --> 00:44:20,160
communication of that information to all

958
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,510
the other people who are there at that

959
00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:23,760
event so in some of the places they've

960
00:44:31,579 --> 00:44:28,049
got a network of video screens around

961
00:44:36,289 --> 00:44:31,589
the the event and they show a photograph

962
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:36,299
of the dangerous pills and they say if

963
00:44:43,819 --> 00:44:40,740
you've got a blue pill with PM 67 on it

964
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:43,829
and a smiling face on it that looks like

965
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:45,130
this

966
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:48,550
it's we just tested a pill like that and

967
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:51,010
it contained this stuff and that's

968
00:44:56,610 --> 00:44:53,440
highly lethal if you take that visit

969
00:44:59,340 --> 00:44:56,620
high risk that you'll be hospitalized

970
00:45:01,380 --> 00:44:59,350
and possibly even die we recommend you

971
00:45:04,530 --> 00:45:01,390
throw that away in the amnesty bid and

972
00:45:06,780 --> 00:45:04,540
so there's a group benefit from that and

973
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:06,790
the third benefit is the market benefit

974
00:45:11,970 --> 00:45:09,210
and what happens with the market is that

975
00:45:14,010 --> 00:45:11,980
it's part of impossible to prove this

976
00:45:18,990 --> 00:45:14,020
sort of disprove this but it's very

977
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:19,000
likely that if we if if people who are

978
00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:20,890
going to sell drugs at an event like

979
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,510
that know that's going to be pill

980
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:24,640
testing they're they're not going to

981
00:45:29,550 --> 00:45:27,010
sell their dodgy pills they'll sell

982
00:45:30,750 --> 00:45:29,560
their low-risk bills the question I'd

983
00:45:32,430 --> 00:45:30,760
like to ask whose people might be

984
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:32,440
wondering what would build testing

985
00:45:38,660 --> 00:45:35,680
entail are using spectrographs now I yes

986
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:38,670
they're half a dozen different

987
00:45:43,770 --> 00:45:42,400
techniques that are used and they've all

988
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:43,780
got their own advantages and

989
00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:44,650
disadvantages

990
00:45:49,110 --> 00:45:46,300
they're using the same kind of

991
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:49,120
technology that is used in hospital

992
00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:51,490
laboratories and scientific laboratories

993
00:45:55,290 --> 00:45:53,260
across the country

994
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:55,300
Thunder sounds expensive this machine

995
00:46:00,060 --> 00:45:57,370
too expensive these machines are

996
00:46:04,740 --> 00:46:00,070
expensive and that's why nobody wants to

997
00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:04,750
do civil disobedience because you got to

998
00:46:08,970 --> 00:46:06,280
buy a hundred and twenty thousand dollar

999
00:46:11,550 --> 00:46:08,980
machine to be disobedient and that could

1000
00:46:14,460 --> 00:46:11,560
easily be confiscated and then you'd be

1001
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:14,470
in real trouble I think what we will see

1002
00:46:20,610 --> 00:46:17,350
is edging our way more closer and closer

1003
00:46:22,830 --> 00:46:20,620
to fill testing will at some point all

1004
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:22,840
six states and two territories will have

1005
00:46:27,950 --> 00:46:24,450
pill testing

1006
00:46:30,289 --> 00:46:27,960
and I wish that would happen tomorrow

1007
00:46:32,690 --> 00:46:30,299
but or actually I wish did it happen

1008
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:32,700
yesterday thank you doctor Alex watt for

1009
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:34,710
being on the sceptic zone okay my

1010
00:46:51,580 --> 00:46:49,870
hello listeners a maximum fun I want to

1011
00:46:53,530 --> 00:46:51,590
tell you about our newest podcast that

1012
00:46:55,090 --> 00:46:53,540
tells you all about the truth of the

1013
00:46:56,350 --> 00:46:55,100
Flat Earth have you been looking out

1014
00:46:58,090 --> 00:46:56,360
over the horizon and you've been

1015
00:47:00,700 --> 00:46:58,100
thinking wait a minute this doesn't look

1016
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:00,710
round I've been lied to my whole life

1017
00:47:08,020 --> 00:47:03,410
what is NASA doing with 52 million

1018
00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:08,030
dollars a day oh come on we explode the

1019
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:11,540
myths just kidding we're ho no Ross and

1020
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:13,730
Carrie and we investigate extraordinary

1021
00:47:18,430 --> 00:47:16,070
claims that's right we investigate

1022
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:18,440
extraordinary claims firsthand we go

1023
00:47:22,690 --> 00:47:20,240
undercover in fringe groups we get

1024
00:47:24,610 --> 00:47:22,700
alternative medicine treatments and we

1025
00:47:26,980 --> 00:47:24,620
hang out with people who have unusual

1026
00:47:29,110 --> 00:47:26,990
beliefs like flat earthers 9/11 truthers

1027
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:29,120
we do ghost investigations we've joined

1028
00:47:33,250 --> 00:47:31,310
Scientology and we got baptized in the

1029
00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:33,260
Mormon Church if it goes bump in the

1030
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:37,460
night then so do we hmm why don't you

1031
00:47:49,450 --> 00:47:39,050
check out oh no Ross and Carrie and

1032
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:52,039
here is a press release by the

1033
00:47:57,500 --> 00:47:54,000
Australian skeptics Australian skeptics

1034
00:48:06,440 --> 00:47:57,510
Inc released on the 20th of February 20

1035
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:06,450
19 million skeptics Inc AAS I commend

1036
00:48:12,380 --> 00:48:09,119
Daniel Andrews Premier of Victoria for

1037
00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:12,390
his recently announced plan to ban gay

1038
00:48:18,049 --> 00:48:14,900
conversion therapy across the state

1039
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:18,059
these church based therapies are not

1040
00:48:23,150 --> 00:48:20,670
based on scientific evidence have been

1041
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:23,160
proven not to work and are well known to

1042
00:48:27,410 --> 00:48:25,290
cause physical and psychological harm

1043
00:48:28,970 --> 00:48:27,420
gay conversion therapy has been

1044
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:28,980
denounced by the Australian

1045
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:30,930
Psychological Society the Royal

1046
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:32,730
Australasian College of Physicians the

1047
00:48:37,490 --> 00:48:34,530
Australian Medical Association and the

1048
00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:37,500
Australian Human Rights Commission these

1049
00:48:42,339 --> 00:48:40,230
practices include a version therapy for

1050
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,349
example electrocution of genitals

1051
00:48:48,109 --> 00:48:44,880
administration of drugs to make people

1052
00:48:52,970 --> 00:48:48,119
feel nauseous or vomit participation in

1053
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:52,980
exorcisms or prayer sessions to pray the

1054
00:49:00,020 --> 00:48:56,690
gay away extreme pressure from family

1055
00:49:02,089 --> 00:49:00,030
friends church leaders and parents can

1056
00:49:04,370 --> 00:49:02,099
coerce people into undergoing gay

1057
00:49:06,829 --> 00:49:04,380
conversion therapy threatening them with

1058
00:49:09,799 --> 00:49:06,839
rejection from their church family and

1059
00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:09,809
other social and financial supports says

1060
00:49:15,410 --> 00:49:13,140
Trish Hahn vice president of ASI and

1061
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:15,420
points out that those who do participate

1062
00:49:19,849 --> 00:49:18,000
in gay conversion therapy ultimately

1063
00:49:22,660 --> 00:49:19,859
find that their sexuality or gender

1064
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:22,670
remains unchanged but they are left with

1065
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:24,930
significant physical and psychological

1066
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:28,079
trauma and experience a high incidence

1067
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:31,410
of suicide and says judge members

1068
00:49:37,069 --> 00:49:34,140
immersed in these religious groups often

1069
00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:37,079
face spiritual abuse and are unable to

1070
00:49:42,049 --> 00:49:39,720
make informed choices they are told that

1071
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:42,059
conversion therapy is their only option

1072
00:49:46,789 --> 00:49:44,490
Australian skeptics Inc find it

1073
00:49:48,770 --> 00:49:46,799
reprehensible that every state and

1074
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:48,780
territory of Australia still allows this

1075
00:49:53,539 --> 00:49:50,880
unsubstantiated treatment despite

1076
00:49:56,420 --> 00:49:53,549
evidence of spiritual physical and

1077
00:49:58,250 --> 00:49:56,430
psychological abuse these practices

1078
00:50:01,070 --> 00:49:58,260
are decreasing around the world with

1079
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:01,080
nationwide regional and de facto bans in

1080
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:03,420
countries including Argentina Brazil

1081
00:50:08,660 --> 00:50:06,330
Canada Switzerland and the United States

1082
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:08,670
however they are still being performed

1083
00:50:14,180 --> 00:50:11,310
behind closed doors in many religious

1084
00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:14,190
communities Australian skeptics Inc

1085
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:16,860
welcome this measured decision by the

1086
00:50:20,870 --> 00:50:18,780
Victorian Government and look forward to

1087
00:50:23,210 --> 00:50:20,880
seeing similar legislation across the

1088
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,220
whole of Australia people struggling

1089
00:50:27,710 --> 00:50:25,440
with issues surrounding their sexuality

1090
00:50:29,140 --> 00:50:27,720
or gender identity are encouraged to

1091
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:29,150
speak with a general practitioner

1092
00:50:34,910 --> 00:50:32,160
psychologist or counselor not affiliated

1093
00:50:37,550 --> 00:50:34,920
with a religious organization crisis

1094
00:50:51,590 --> 00:50:37,560
helpline such as beyondblue or lifeline

1095
00:50:51,600 --> 00:51:00,210
[Music]

1096
00:51:04,270 --> 00:51:02,590
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1097
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:04,280
zone now as mentioned on last week's

1098
00:51:09,370 --> 00:51:07,490
episode I'm going to be in California in

1099
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:09,380
a few weeks I'm going to be speaking at

1100
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:13,850
Berkeley and it's the Bay Area skeptics

1101
00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:17,770
and that will be on the 14th of March at

1102
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:20,390
LaPenta Cultural Center which is

1103
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:23,450
downtown Berkeley it's quite easy to

1104
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:24,890
find there will be a link of course on

1105
00:51:30,010 --> 00:51:27,530
this week's show notes and my talk will

1106
00:51:34,570 --> 00:51:30,020
be Australia's psychic detectives and

1107
00:51:37,450 --> 00:51:34,580
psychic predictions just how many crimes

1108
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:37,460
have so-called psychic detectives solved

1109
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:38,270
in Australia

1110
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:40,610
how do their claims stack up against the

1111
00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:43,280
results do police really call upon the

1112
00:51:48,010 --> 00:51:45,950
paranormal to find missing people join

1113
00:51:51,610 --> 00:51:48,020
Australian sceptic Richard Saunders as

1114
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:51,620
he examines some famous crimes and the

1115
00:51:55,930 --> 00:51:53,930
alleged supernatural connection also

1116
00:51:58,360 --> 00:51:55,940
Richard will give an overview of the

1117
00:52:00,550 --> 00:51:58,370
world's most comprehensive study into

1118
00:52:04,270 --> 00:52:00,560
psychic predictions it's fun reading a

1119
00:52:07,150 --> 00:52:04,280
blurb about oneself hmm so that's coming

1120
00:52:08,590 --> 00:52:07,160
up on the 14th of March links in this

1121
00:52:11,530 --> 00:52:08,600
week's show notes if you're in the Bay

1122
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:11,540
Area I would love to see you a shout out

1123
00:52:17,590 --> 00:52:13,970
to Mario thank you to those people

1124
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:17,600
around the world around the world who

1125
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:20,270
contribute via patreon and PayPal that's

1126
00:52:24,820 --> 00:52:22,910
very good to know there's support out

1127
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:24,830
there and the reporters my reporters

1128
00:52:29,380 --> 00:52:27,770
also appreciate that I've done this

1129
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:29,390
before but it's worth doing it again

1130
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:31,700
diri what's the conversion rate five

1131
00:52:37,210 --> 00:52:34,450
American dollars into Australian dollars

1132
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:37,220
five US dollars there's seven dollars

1133
00:52:42,670 --> 00:52:40,130
and one cent there we go there we go a

1134
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:42,680
couple of extra dollars come my way as

1135
00:52:47,350 --> 00:52:45,410
if by magic but again thank you to all

1136
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:47,360
those people around the world who do

1137
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:50,690
support the skeptic zone hmm just think

1138
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:52,610
I can stock up on Twinkies again a

1139
00:53:00,160 --> 00:52:55,010
favorite of my nieces and nephews

1140
00:53:03,730 --> 00:53:00,170
Twinkies yeah I saw a box here in Sydney

1141
00:53:06,510 --> 00:53:03,740
the other day of Twinkies 14 dollars now

1142
00:53:09,580 --> 00:53:06,520
15 $14.99 oof

1143
00:53:09,850 --> 00:53:09,590
but for this week Twinkies and all this

1144
00:53:12,010 --> 00:53:09,860
is

1145
00:53:17,950 --> 00:53:12,020
richardsaunders signing off from Sydney

1146
00:53:20,650 --> 00:53:17,960
Australia you've been listening to the

1147
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:20,660
skeptic zone podcast please visit our

1148
00:53:28,540 --> 00:53:25,250
website at WWDC be for show notes

1149
00:53:32,740 --> 00:53:28,550
contacts and to access the bat catalog

1150
00:53:34,450 --> 00:53:32,750
of episodes going back to 2008 you can

1151
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:34,460
follow the skeptic zone podcast on

1152
00:53:39,790 --> 00:53:37,520
twitter at skeptic zone visit our

1153
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:39,800
facebook page or leave a review on

1154
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:40,690
itunes

1155
00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:43,370
you can also support the skeptic zone

1156
00:53:49,470 --> 00:53:46,760
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1157
00:53:51,850 --> 00:53:49,480
podcast is an independent production

1158
00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:51,860
reviews and opinions expressed on the

1159
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:53,990
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1160
00:53:58,110 --> 00:53:56,330
of Australian skeptics or any other

1161
00:54:11,070 --> 00:53:58,120
sceptical organisation

1162
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:13,330
hello our people who listen after the

1163
00:54:17,830 --> 00:54:15,650
music the afterthoughts is an

1164
00:54:20,980 --> 00:54:17,840
afterthought as you know and if you're

1165
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:20,990
new to the show you don't hmm every so

1166
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:23,810
often I will roll a die usually 10-sided

1167
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:27,170
where is it my little box here here it

1168
00:54:33,610 --> 00:54:31,490
is I've got a 10 sided die here so and

1169
00:54:35,500 --> 00:54:33,620
happened to land on number 4 and I ask

1170
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:35,510
listeners to use their psychic

1171
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:37,730
predicting powers to predict the number

1172
00:54:42,700 --> 00:54:40,520
I normally roll it three times last time

1173
00:54:46,750 --> 00:54:42,710
I rolled a 30 sided die this week I'm

1174
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:46,760
gonna roll a 60 yeah well why not life

1175
00:54:52,450 --> 00:54:49,730
short why not okay so use your psychic

1176
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:52,460
predicting power and there's a plane

1177
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:55,370
flying overhead and they don't care use

1178
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:56,720
your psychic predicting power I'm going

1179
00:55:00,360 --> 00:54:58,490
to roll the diet it's going to be one or

1180
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:00,370
all the way up to number 60

1181
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:03,110
that's it rolling on the table now and

1182
00:55:11,380 --> 00:55:06,010
I'll spin it and roll it here we go

1183
00:55:15,490 --> 00:55:11,390
falls off the table it's taking a long

1184
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:15,500
time it looks like Jupiter more than nor

1185
00:55:18,850 --> 00:55:16,880
the strappy patterns here it's coming

1186
00:55:20,590 --> 00:55:18,860
it's slowing don't fall off the table

1187
00:55:26,350 --> 00:55:20,600
it's slowing down I know you're waiting

1188
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:26,360
for this after all that it's 23 the

1189
00:55:30,220 --> 00:55:28,850
first number is 23 I got to write this

1190
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:30,230
down because sometimes I do this may

1191
00:55:33,820 --> 00:55:32,210
even forget the numbers you should see

1192
00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:33,830
what goes on behind the scenes here 23

1193
00:55:38,980 --> 00:55:35,870
ok the next number coming up on see if I

1194
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:38,990
can make this a bit quicker come on

1195
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:48,370
there we go and the next number is 14

1196
00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:50,050
write that down

1197
00:56:00,370 --> 00:55:57,910
23 14 and the last number that was quick

1198
00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:00,380
27